The probability of other creatures organically dying blue

[Doorknob]

The murex brandaris as well as the red one Stramonita Haemastom. These both make blue if you photo-debrominate it the same way they do to the trunculus.

Plicopurpura pansa, Concholepas concholepas, Thaisella chocolata (found in the South American Pacific), Plicopurpura patula (South American Atlantic, Caribbean), Purpura Persica, Ocenebra Erinaceus (also found in the mediterranean), and Nucella Lapillus (William Cole, 1685) are just a few additional ones that can produce blue.
 

[rhecht]

The murex brandaris as well as the red one Stramonita Haemastom. These both make blue if you photo-debrominate it the same way they do to the trunculus.

Plicopurpura pansa, Concholepas concholepas, Thaisella chocolata (found in the South American Pacific), Plicopurpura patula (South American Atlantic, Caribbean), Purpura Persica, Ocenebra Erinaceus (also found in the mediterranean), and Nucella Lapillus (William Cole, 1685) are just a few additional ones that can produce blue.
 

 

I'll find out about that. Fortunately in the Facebook group we have expert dyers outside of Ptil Tekhelet (though I'll check with them as well) and see if any clarification is required.
 

[Doorknob]

Yes, keep us posted. I got this information from ptil techeiles, as well as Dr. Koren's articles. It would be very interesting to hear from other experts as well 
 

[rhecht]

Yes, keep us posted. I got this information from ptil techeiles, as well as Dr. Koren's articles. It would be very interesting to hear from other experts as well 
 

 

One member from the Facebook group wrote: "I dyed with Haemastoma in direct bright Florida sunlight and it didn’t turn blue. Afterwards I boiled the wool and it’s still not blue."
 

[rhecht]

Yes, keep us posted. I got this information from ptil techeiles, as well as Dr. Koren's articles. It would be very interesting to hear from other experts as well 
 


 

I'll also add that I don't know what Dr. Koren did or didn't do. He's a dye chemist but I don't know if he himself dyed straight from these snails. He moreso focuses on existing textiles as well as ancient textiles.

I love Dr. Koren as he's a wealth of information, but some of the things he claims about Techeiles being bluish have massive holes in them. TBH I haven't yet had the time to write a piece analyzing them (one day).

On a different note, Dr. Zohar Amar once wrote that Ptil uses Branderis shells, which Baruch Sterman and company flatly deny. I contacted Dr. Amar directly asking him about what he wrote. His response was to "pass the buck:" "I don't know, ask Baruch." So there's that answer.
 

[rhecht]

The Medrash says that it was nignaz- this is also brought down by the Gra lehalacha.
It is not improbable that a creature went extinct and is unknown to science.





 

Please clarify.

Where is the Gra exactly?


 

או"ח סי' ט ס"ב


 בזה"ז כו'. ע' מ"ר פ' שלח ועכשיו אין לנו אלא לבן כו': 
 
 

 

All "ועכשיו אין לנו אלא לבן" means that "now" at this present moment, at the time of the writing of the text. But to your point there's an even stronger one he writes on LeDorosam: https://bluefringes.com/textual_sources ... ledorosam/ . But still, that can be understood as Techeiles not having a continuous Mesorah like Lavan has.
 

[Mr. Genugshoin]

Please clarify.

Where is the Gra exactly?



 

או"ח סי' ט ס"ב


 בזה"ז כו'. ע' מ"ר פ' שלח ועכשיו אין לנו אלא לבן כו': 
 
 


 

All "ועכשיו אין לנו אלא לבן" means that "now" at this present moment, at the time of the writing of the text. But to your point there's an even stronger one he writes on LeDorosam: https://bluefringes.com/textual_sources ... ledorosam/ . But still, that can be understood as Techeiles not having a continuous Mesorah like Lavan has.
 
 

The Biur Hagra is obviously more reliable. He is quoting the medrash of nignaz, it would seem that there is a reason he is bringing it (you don't need a source that we don't have techeiles, that was an obvious fact). However you are right that it is not the strongest proof.

[rhecht]

או"ח סי' ט ס"ב


 בזה"ז כו'. ע' מ"ר פ' שלח ועכשיו אין לנו אלא לבן כו': 
 
 



 

All "ועכשיו אין לנו אלא לבן" means that "now" at this present moment, at the time of the writing of the text. But to your point there's an even stronger one he writes on LeDorosam: https://bluefringes.com/textual_sources ... ledorosam/ . But still, that can be understood as Techeiles not having a continuous Mesorah like Lavan has.
 

 

The Biur Hagra is obviously more reliable. He is quoting the medrash of nignaz, it would seem that there is a reason he is bringing it (you don't need a source that we don't have techeiles, that was an obvious fact). However you are right that it is not the strongest proof.

 

I'm not saying he didn't say Techeiles was or wasn't until Moshiach, but the GR"A is difficult to comprehend. To get a broader view, the GR"A talks about string ratio in different places, some where he seemingly supports Rambam ratio, some with Raavad, and some with Tosafos ratio. But when looking into it further, he was moreso writing what he was learning or correcting about the texts. In a way it's no different from someone writing that Rambam wrote to wear a whole string, or 2/8 ratio. You or I would respond that no, it's a half string, or 1/8 ratio. It doesn't necessarily mean you or I hold of that ratio with Techeiles, it simply means the text as written needs to be corrected.
 

[Mr. Genugshoin]

Correct, but here he is clearly explaining the shulchan aruch with the medrash. It's possible that his intention here is that in halacha we consider techeiles to be lost (cannot be found nowadays) and not just that practically in his time it was lost; it is also possible that he was just giving a source and did not intend anything more than that.

[rhecht]

That's probably what I heard about.

Does anyone know how the Mexican Indians use it to dye wool? 
@rhecht  Do you know?
 

 

Sorry for the late response. They use it for blue-purple, but the same reduction process can use it to dye blue. It's part of the murex family but, being in a completely different part of the world, it's highly unlikely that the Jews and others in the Mediterranean dyed blue with it.