Color of murex trunculus dye

[MIlanH]

You have to also remember, that they would have to be crazy to make sky blue out of it, if they can get the exact same thing for a hundredth the price, using indigo.

[rhecht]

@rhecht it does seem likely, that if the murex was used for blue in ancient times, so purpura could have included that color as well.
However, as pointed out before, there is no evidence that it was ever used for blue, so it is unlikely that pupura can mean blue.
There is evidence that it was used for blue-purple, similar to the first picture you attached above. But not sky blue, like is used today.
 
 
 

 

Maybe not from Greek textual sources. We have the Raavya's girss in the yerushalmi helping us out with the word purphirin which is right alongside the word prisinan which means leek green (prasa means leek and prisinos means green even today). So from a Jewish perspective we have evidence. Which leads us that, either
1. Murex trunculus was used to dye blue purple, which might have been the ancient color used, or2. It was also used for sky blue which is our dominant opinion for Techeiles, but not as documented in the Greek writings.

Based on the metzius it seems that the second option is more likely. In fact, under the sun which the ancients certainly had, it was very doable and in fact "too easy." But we also have evidence that Pliny (I believe) wrote as blue being a melancholy color among other sources. I would need to dig them up, but there's that.

[MIlanH]

With regards to Pliny, I've read all those sources, some of them can be understood to mean blue, but the general accepted translations all understand him to be referring to a purplish hue, possibly blue purple. (He didn't write that to describe the color, he was being poetic and wrote that it has a gloomy tinge like a raging sea).
I don't think the Raavyah can be used as too much proof, it is not entirely clear what he is trying to say.
To say that techeiles is blue purple is definitely the most likely possibility, if you are insistent that the murex is techeiles. However, as Professor Koren pointed out, that only some of the trunculuses can dye that color naturally, whilst many others naturally dye red-purple, similar to brandaris. He also explains that in the olden days they did not expose the dye to the sun, since they did not use transparent vats.

[Mr. Genugshoin]

I'm not arguing that techeiles is blue, however the SY calls it purple (purpura). If techeiles can only be blue this SY cannot be accepted. I am asking for a source that purpura in Greek includes blue (for example in English purple does not include blue), if it does there is no kasha from the SY.

Another thought: The Raavya was a Rishon, and he did not know what the chilazon was; the importance of the Raavya for this topic is the SY that he quotes. Now, the line that he says והוא מעיל etc. is clearly not from the SY, rather an explanation from the Raavya, so although it is hard to understand (for many reasons; the manuscripts have to do with this) that sentence doesn't contribute much to our discussion. 
All we have is the SY, from the times of the geonim, stating that techeiles is purple.
 

The word Purpura means purple. But it also means a snail from the murex family: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purpura_(gastropod) . Again, orange and peach are both fruits and colors. So I don't see it as a misreading to say it refers to the snail that was prized for dyeing purple, yet was able to also dye blue as we now know today. Purphirin it would seem would be a derivative of the purpura which includes many blues, purples, and reds. That's why I'm suggesting that the ancient Greeks used it to refer to either a supercolor or dyed wool.

What's also important about this supercolor is that, unlike Dam Niddah which needs to be a specific shade, nowhere in the Gemara does it state that Techeiles needs to be a specific shade. So light blue, dark blue, and blue-purple are all different tires of the same car.

Now, Techeiles was also referred to by the Rambam himself to be midday sky blue in a few places. Furthermore lots of Acharonim and contemporary Gedolim accept the color to be sky blue: https://www.techeiles.org/wp-content/up ... m-5780.pdf . And if you want to say that the Rishonim lost their Mesorah, let's look at the main ones where they got theirs from:

Rambam - Received the mesorah and even chulyos from Shmuel bar Chofni Gaon. Chofni Gaon himself lived in the 900s, not long after Techeiles "officially" disappeared.
Raavad - Received the mesorah from Natronoi Gaon who lived in the 900s (he doesn't write blue but Natronoi Gaon lived when Techeiles was around).
Rashi/Tosafos - Received the mesorah from the yeshiva of Yaakov ben Yakar in Worms who lived in the 900s.

All of these in turn received a direct Mesorah from Talmudic times that Techeiles is blue. So it's not relevant that these Rishonim themselves didn't see it in person.

But you're right in that some write that Techeiles is purple, which while to some would spell a Teiku, others see it as an "AND" answer, it's blue-purple AND sky blue AND dark blue as long as it's from the same creature AND that the core color is blue.
 

There are 2 ways to understand the word purpura: 1. It can mean the MT (purple-fish) 2. It can mean the color purple
When the SY says techeiles=purpura he could have meant 1. Techeiles is the MT (a creature) or 2. Techeiles is purple (a color)

Techeiles is obviously not a creature, rather it is a dye that comes from a creature, so we would have to read the SY as saying that techeiles=purple (the color).

Because there is no evidence suggesting that the word purpura included blue, we have the SY saying that techeiles is purple. However, the SY was never accepted as being authoritive so we can reject it in view of the mesorah. 
 

[rhecht]

I'm not arguing that techeiles is blue, however the SY calls it purple (purpura). If techeiles can only be blue this SY cannot be accepted. I am asking for a source that purpura in Greek includes blue (for example in English purple does not include blue), if it does there is no kasha from the SY.

Another thought: The Raavya was a Rishon, and he did not know what the chilazon was; the importance of the Raavya for this topic is the SY that he quotes. Now, the line that he says והוא מעיל etc. is clearly not from the SY, rather an explanation from the Raavya, so although it is hard to understand (for many reasons; the manuscripts have to do with this) that sentence doesn't contribute much to our discussion. 
All we have is the SY, from the times of the geonim, stating that techeiles is purple.

 

The word Purpura means purple. But it also means a snail from the murex family: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purpura_(gastropod) . Again, orange and peach are both fruits and colors. So I don't see it as a misreading to say it refers to the snail that was prized for dyeing purple, yet was able to also dye blue as we now know today. Purphirin it would seem would be a derivative of the purpura which includes many blues, purples, and reds. That's why I'm suggesting that the ancient Greeks used it to refer to either a supercolor or dyed wool.

What's also important about this supercolor is that, unlike Dam Niddah which needs to be a specific shade, nowhere in the Gemara does it state that Techeiles needs to be a specific shade. So light blue, dark blue, and blue-purple are all different tires of the same car.

Now, Techeiles was also referred to by the Rambam himself to be midday sky blue in a few places. Furthermore lots of Acharonim and contemporary Gedolim accept the color to be sky blue: https://www.techeiles.org/wp-content/up ... m-5780.pdf . And if you want to say that the Rishonim lost their Mesorah, let's look at the main ones where they got theirs from:

Rambam - Received the mesorah and even chulyos from Shmuel bar Chofni Gaon. Chofni Gaon himself lived in the 900s, not long after Techeiles "officially" disappeared.
Raavad - Received the mesorah from Natronoi Gaon who lived in the 900s (he doesn't write blue but Natronoi Gaon lived when Techeiles was around).
Rashi/Tosafos - Received the mesorah from the yeshiva of Yaakov ben Yakar in Worms who lived in the 900s.

All of these in turn received a direct Mesorah from Talmudic times that Techeiles is blue. So it's not relevant that these Rishonim themselves didn't see it in person.

But you're right in that some write that Techeiles is purple, which while to some would spell a Teiku, others see it as an "AND" answer, it's blue-purple AND sky blue AND dark blue as long as it's from the same creature AND that the core color is blue.

 

There are 2 ways to understand the word purpura: 1. It can mean the MT (purple-fish) 2. It can mean the color purple
When the SY says techeiles=purpura he could have meant 1. Techeiles is the MT (a creature) or 2. Techeiles is purple (a color)

Techeiles is obviously not a creature, rather it is a dye that comes from a creature, so we would have to read the SY as saying that techeiles=purple (the color).

Because there is no evidence suggesting that the word purpura included blue, we have the SY saying that techeiles is purple. However, the SY was never accepted as being authoritive so we can reject it in view of the mesorah. 
 

 

Seriously, I don't know if we're having a discussion or a debate. Because debates like these, especially without a moderator, can go on for a long time and end up being uncivil.

That said, purphirin as I understand it is what's derived from the purpura. Re: authoritative, what do you consider to be authoritative? I'm not rejecting the SY so fast.
 

[rhecht]

The word Purpura means purple. But it also means a snail from the murex family: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purpura_(gastropod) . Again, orange and peach are both fruits and colors. So I don't see it as a misreading to say it refers to the snail that was prized for dyeing purple, yet was able to also dye blue as we now know today. Purphirin it would seem would be a derivative of the purpura which includes many blues, purples, and reds. That's why I'm suggesting that the ancient Greeks used it to refer to either a supercolor or dyed wool.

What's also important about this supercolor is that, unlike Dam Niddah which needs to be a specific shade, nowhere in the Gemara does it state that Techeiles needs to be a specific shade. So light blue, dark blue, and blue-purple are all different tires of the same car.

Now, Techeiles was also referred to by the Rambam himself to be midday sky blue in a few places. Furthermore lots of Acharonim and contemporary Gedolim accept the color to be sky blue: https://www.techeiles.org/wp-content/up ... m-5780.pdf . And if you want to say that the Rishonim lost their Mesorah, let's look at the main ones where they got theirs from:

Rambam - Received the mesorah and even chulyos from Shmuel bar Chofni Gaon. Chofni Gaon himself lived in the 900s, not long after Techeiles "officially" disappeared.
Raavad - Received the mesorah from Natronoi Gaon who lived in the 900s (he doesn't write blue but Natronoi Gaon lived when Techeiles was around).
Rashi/Tosafos - Received the mesorah from the yeshiva of Yaakov ben Yakar in Worms who lived in the 900s.

All of these in turn received a direct Mesorah from Talmudic times that Techeiles is blue. So it's not relevant that these Rishonim themselves didn't see it in person.

But you're right in that some write that Techeiles is purple, which while to some would spell a Teiku, others see it as an "AND" answer, it's blue-purple AND sky blue AND dark blue as long as it's from the same creature AND that the core color is blue.


 

There are 2 ways to understand the word purpura: 1. It can mean the MT (purple-fish) 2. It can mean the color purple
When the SY says techeiles=purpura he could have meant 1. Techeiles is the MT (a creature) or 2. Techeiles is purple (a color)

Techeiles is obviously not a creature, rather it is a dye that comes from a creature, so we would have to read the SY as saying that techeiles=purple (the color).

Because there is no evidence suggesting that the word purpura included blue, we have the SY saying that techeiles is purple. However, the SY was never accepted as being authoritive so we can reject it in view of the mesorah. 
 


 

Seriously, I don't know if we're having a discussion or a debate. Because debates like these, especially without a moderator, can go on for a long time and end up being uncivil to say the least. Besides, my time is too valuable for that, let's be clear.

That said, purphirin as I understand it is what's derived from the purpura. Re: authoritative, what do you consider to be authoritative? I'm not rejecting the SY so fast.
 

 

 

[Mr. Genugshoin]

Seriously, I don't know if we're having a discussion or a debate. Because debates like these, especially without a moderator, can go on for a long time and end up being uncivil to say the least. Besides, my time is too valuable for that, let's be clear.

That said, purphirin as I understand it is what's derived from the purpura. Re: authoritative, what do you consider to be authoritative? I'm not rejecting the SY so fast.

You are saying that purphirin translates as derived from purple (the creature). Is that true? Does "prisinin" mean derived from leek green?
 

[rhecht]

Seriously, I don't know if we're having a discussion or a debate. Because debates like these, especially without a moderator, can go on for a long time and end up being uncivil to say the least. Besides, my time is too valuable for that, let's be clear.

That said, purphirin as I understand it is what's derived from the purpura. Re: authoritative, what do you consider to be authoritative? I'm not rejecting the SY so fast.

You are saying that purphirin translates as derived from purple (the creature). Is that true? Does "prisinin" mean derived from leek green?
 

 

I would think so. Prasa means leek in Greek. And Prisinos means green in Greek.

[Mr. Genugshoin]

 

I would think so. Prasa means leek in Greek. And Prisinos means green in Greek.

 

What does it mean that it is "derived" from leek? Is leek a dye that creates a green color?
 
 

[Nosson]

... in 2013, Na'ama Sukenik of the Israel Antiquities Authority verified a 1st-century CE-dated fragment of blue-dyed fabric to have used H. trunculus as the source of its pure blue color. 
From Jewish Virtual Library:

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/tekhelet