Gedolim Against Techeiles

[Yitzchok Mickler]

I think many of the Gedolim who lived before the Radziner zatzal and wrote that Techeiles will be lost until Moshiach comes and brought explanations from the revealed and hidden Torah would have changed their minds if they had read the words of the Radziner or seen the evidence that we have now.

They assumed Techeiles would be revealed along with all the other things that Eliyah HaNovi and Moshiach will reveal and found explanations for what they assumed was true.

Before Charles Darwin, Gedolim accepted what science had to say.

[MIlanH]

I've actually read what many of the scientists themselves say about the techeiles, and it is not nearly as simple as techeiles supporters would make you think. True, they are all of the opinion that it is the authentic techeiles, but there is no agreement as to the correct color, and it is generally agreed by all experts that the murex was never used for sky blue in ancient times (other than for techeiles, possibly). The main proof that this is techeiles is only through process of elimination, but there is no solid evidence at all connecting the trunculus to techeiles.
I actually believe that if the current gedolim who support techeiles, would actually read what the experts themselves say on this (not a few quotations that are cherry picked by the techeiles supporters) they would not be nearly as enthusiastic about it.
for example, I myself showed a few supporters that on ptils website they write that this color can be obtained from numerous other snails, and they were shocked. I don't think they would have put on techeiles had they known that before.
 
 
 

[rhecht]

I've actually read what many of the scientists themselves say about the techeiles, and it is not nearly as simple as techeiles supporters would make you think. True, they are all of the opinion that it is the authentic techeiles, but there is no agreement as to the correct color, and it is generally agreed by all experts that the murex was never used for sky blue in ancient times (other than for techeiles, possibly). The main proof that this is techeiles is only through process of elimination, but there is no solid evidence at all connecting the trunculus to techeiles.
I actually believe that if the current gedolim who support techeiles, would actually read what the experts themselves say on this (not a few quotations that are cherry picked by the techeiles supporters) they would not be nearly as enthusiastic about it.
for example, I myself showed a few supporters that on ptils website they write that this color can be obtained from numerous other snails, and they were shocked. I don't think they would have put on techeiles had they known that before.
 
 
 

 

Please provide links showing that this blue can come from other snails? I have even more solid evidence from practical dyeing that only the MT can produce this blue.

Regarding the color, remember that the Gemara doesn't talk about shade at all regarding Techeiles, unlike when it comes to the "correct" red shade regarding Dam Niddah. Furthermore the objective of the Rambam is that it only needs to be a blue dye that's Min Chilazon.

Also regarding color, it was actually "too easy" for the ancients to make blue over blue-purple by exposing it to sunlight or intense heat, among other ways (see https://www.mywesternwall.net/2020/05/1 ... color.html). Pliny wrote that the color blue was melancholy, which shows that the ancient Greeks and Romans didn't prize blue like the Jews did. To show how easy it was, see: https://www.techeiles.org/library_main/ ... n-history/ .

[MIlanH]

See here that you can produce blue from other snails

https://www.tekhelet.com/ask-ptil-tekhelet/

Why do we assume tekhelet came from this snail opposed to the other dye producing snails?There are only 3 dye producing snails in the Mediterranean: Murex trunculus, Murex brandaris (almost identical to trunculus), and Thaïs haemastoma (a distant relative). Technically speaking one can produce blues and purples from any of them and it seems that they are all “kosher” for tekhelet production. One piece of evidence which points in the direction of different snails being used for different dyes is the archaeological find at Sidon where a football field size mound of trunculus....

 

[Nosson]

I once heard the original decree text against anyone but royals selling or buying techeiles mentions using it for blue as well.

T\F?

[MIlanH]

I once heard the original decree text against anyone but royals selling or buying techeiles mentions using it for blue as well.

T\F?

 

False.
 

[Tassel Decore]

See here that you can produce blue from other snails

https://www.tekhelet.com/ask-ptil-tekhelet/

Why do we assume tekhelet came from this snail opposed to the other dye producing snails?There are only 3 dye producing snails in the Mediterranean: Murex trunculus, Murex brandaris (almost identical to trunculus), and Thaïs haemastoma (a distant relative). Technically speaking one can produce blues and purples from any of them and it seems that they are all “kosher” for tekhelet production. One piece of evidence which points in the direction of different snails being used for different dyes is the archaeological find at Sidon where a football field size mound of trunculus....

 

 

If we agree that "Chilazon" means "snail" then this is kosher for techeiles.
It's heart warming to know that this particular snail was use in the times of chaza"l but it's not a halachik requirement that we use the same type of chilazon.

[Nosson]

I once heard the original decree text against anyone but royals selling or buying techeiles mentions using it for blue as well.

T\F?


 

False.
 

 

Can a forum member help obtain the relevant Justinian Codex?
 

[Mr. Genugshoin]

kruger cj.PNG

Here is the Kruger edition for reference. The [correct] MS version states "iantina" which translates to violet
 
 

[rhecht]

I once heard the original decree text against anyone but royals selling or buying techeiles mentions using it for blue as well.

T\F?



 

False.
 


 

Can a forum member help obtain the relevant Justinian Codex?
 

 

See https://droitromain.univ-grenoble-alpes ... _Scott.htm:

"Title 40. What property cannot be sold, and what persons are forbidden to sell or purchase it.

 
1. The Emperors Gratian, Valentinian, and Theodosius to Faustus, Count of the Sacred Largesses.

No private person shall have the right to dye either silk or wool with the colors called blatta, oxyblatta, or hyacinthina, or sell it after it has been dyed. If anyone should sell wool dyed with the colors aforesaid, he is hereby notified that he will incur the risk of losing his property and his life.

2. The Same to Toriobandus, Duke of Mesopotamia.

We order, as has already been decreed, that all barbarians, excepting the Count of Commerce, shall be deprived of the right to purchase silk.

3. The Emperors Arcadius and Honorius to the Senate and the People.

For the reason that grain destined for the public is said to be sometimes sold on various coasts, the vendors and purchasers of such merchandise are hereby informed that they are liable to capital punishment, and that commercial contracts of this kind made with a view to defrauding the public are prohibited.

4. The Emperors Honorius and Theodosius to Faustus, Praetorian Prefect.

In order to prevent the grain intended for Our most devoted army from being appropriated for the benefit of others, We order by this law that anyone who shall engage in this kind of traffic, if he is of high rank, shall be proscribed, and incur the loss of all his property, and that persons of inferior station shall suffer capital punishment."